Post by anonanon on Nov 5, 2011 12:48:11 GMT -5
(took from a thread so it is more visible)
Radical Caucus Meeting 11.03.11
(NOTE: NAMES WERE INCLUDED IN SOME OF THE NOTETAKING. THAT VERSION IS AVAILABLE, AND WILL POST IF AGREED ON. SORRY TO THE NOTETAKER, BUT ONLY HAVE TWO SECONDS TO DECIDE TO GET THIS UP HERE!!)
this is about relationships- reintros why we are here
participatory economics
filmmaker media outreach homeless people
getting to know one another
highlighting functioning democratic egalitarian systtems
animal liberation outreach educatiojn concencus action and how radicalism resonates with that
the take naiomi klein occupy the park, take back business alternative economies, go slow and meet people we don't know
historic examples abolition movement weren't willing to comormise and practicing tat extemism, critical now for future our children, currently
incaple of funtioning for better world, using this to practice
legislation getting too much energy here, capitolism is the problem it cannot be reformed, go back to the beginning, middle class is tasting injustice,
but we need to address
energetic principals of designhs, energy neutral buildings and personal systems, very deep entological questions need to be asked and answered by us
and the whole world
people shouls dhare ideas for sustainable world, cross disciplother occupations locally and accross county on same page want to see them connect
more and movement catch on ines conversations basic unit of chaqnge
radical change, it's not going to be solved with electoral promises, away from devide and conquer. we need everyon'es participation, the whole 99%
using our current resources and tools, we can stay committed and do it, stay strong over the long haul through the resistance that will come from
power
want to get off couch and come talk, not sure but want to bounce ideas to both narrow and expand ikdeas
about time to be the change, why sit around, become stronger
georgia is facing hardship, we need to take care of ourselves, why is it radical to stand up and say we want a world worth living in ie- chickens and
goats not ok here in albany city, not radical, this is survival, discussion about getting back to skills that sustain us in the community, this is class
oppression
particular initiatives
more radiccal teach in's, put on calendar, paticipatory economics
participatory budgeting in camp and for outer community
there has been a common thread of vigilance and having lasting change
ways of being, how we do model change and demand it in the world, ith's totally connected
one fo the faults of mainstream moements is pushing an agenda
sentiment- we can get out of patterns, be creative in examining and doing structures in shared information don't want to see division, but healthy
critisisms
we should find our points of unity, as a caucus, what are our points, what do they mean, and how much unity exists on those points, and how do we
practice those principletemp check on the point of anticapitolism-
comments- the system in place doesn not work, prison industrial complex, corporations are people, voting rights
power should be horizontal
question of what is capitolism- it is technically based on the ability to profit, profit allows exploitation to go forward.
not against capitolism, but isms in generl. pro empowerment and developing people's capability to undertand theri postion in the worlkd, and truty
from dogma
pro diversity and the ability for everyone to function as they see fi
against large scale post industrial capitolism, don't know what else their is, not exposed, this is why i am here. it is a necessity to go beyond because
capitolism is failing as a system, against depersonalizing forces, eaurocracyies.
if scoety is economy plus politics, we have that.. gift economy and gs is democratic assembly, break stranglehold on myopic view of economy, we can
pass to succeeding generations
it is easier to say what we are for than against. points of unity can come around building a model that does work, as we learn, we can use or not use.
because this is happening around country
(personal idea------------ models that work taken from seana's point)
its possible for people to identify as cells, but the movement is ? politics is done through being for or against something, political science is done like
that.. agains mass society and global systems, but i don't think we can find unity. but we can say capitolism is estructive to our communities and
needs to end.
it's important to ask ourselves important questions. on what grounds do you support capitolism with the understanding of the inevitable relationship
betwweeen capitolosm and exploitation. likewise examine how we support or examine our democratic assemblys. when i was asking questions as a
youth li, we need to aks ourselves why this is still happening? on what grounds do we have this?
i wonder if the occupy movement will work, i don't know if we, our generations feel the sense of desperation, we have our i-phones and our
apartments, how much are we willing to give up to live this radicalism.
the most common ground pro capitolism is "there is no alternative" juztaposed against heirarchal communism. want to articulate the economic
alternatives, pb. how we want to identify as caucus, vs. how we go forward. laying out the alternatives. just using anticapitolism otherwise excludes
many through connotation and lack of understanding of how economies function.
opposed to limiting behaviour, concerned about limiting behavior against the caucus represented through online coments
anti capitolism is at it's liiots, and concerned with conserving resources..
overlap- we want a revolution but the first project is going to envolved education an d conciopus ri am waring thrings from capitolism, it is hard to , i
am trying to transistion and prepare, i am forced to live in it.
the system exploits and givess priveledge, want to see the same opportunity to all born
anti capitolism, getting off the grid, disconnecting from things that drain your soul. we are born in th esystem and need to reawaken "this isn't right"
so many distractions on tv that take you away from these conversations and real life. it's a system of confustion. live in harmony. bringing it back to
living and dwelling on hthis planet and coexisting
activist from 80's , know's friend gay killed himself, mother has alzeimers capitolism isn' thelping. having to live in garages, etc has been a reality. the
powers that be make you fel crazy because it is the staus quo. they are renting us as slaves, legalize hemp will help get rid of deficit, grow our own
food, make our own clothes. don't need ipod. (we should move tent to hear one another.)
system is dehumanizing becuae you have to rent yourself to someone, it is like being owned. it is funtamentally wrong. people are intelegent, need
means, ie supplies. as a community if we decided, we could do amazing things, ie build a carbon free city.
massa action will not work. agains a small or large group telling everyone how to live. ie if someone bays a thte moon, that's fine for them.. what we
do should work from each other.
identify the capitolism system we wound up, skeptical about whether any incarnation could work, but don't know. system is going to collapse. want
to come together and prepare for that that collapse and moving forward.
good that we took the time to go around like this, beneficial, uncomfortable with the idea of 'towing a line' - she left CANY cus she was unhappy with
the reformist approach of that org - felt this was a radical step and that she can be radical without enforcing homogeneity. Does not understand why
we have to replicate the way we do politics ie partisanship
nobody can say what is good for everyone - if u do that it is portraying authoritarian vision of what things should be. feels this really should mean how
we define what we stand with eachother around. Slavery as example - the line was drawn as either for slavery or against, no debate on that issue. We
should collectively draw this line somewhere, wherever we decide as a group. What are we absolutely not willing to accept. By doing politics this way
we can negotiate - band together as group with common interest. If we act as a group which can draw in everyone we end up helping to preserve the
system.
agreement that at some point we have to come to agreement on goal or what we stand for or against
suggestion "exploitation" is the idea we stand opposed to.
abolition example is compelling - likes how ben framed partisanship and wants to draw a line against capitalism. Still does not want to pset us against
any possibility of steps or process. Ex: millionaires tax, a reformist step but important to fight for altho it is not fundamentally going to alter
capitalism. Does not think thisis inconsistent with his opposition to capitalism. Should not ignore this issue or others even tho they are 'reformist'.
can carry over to other issues such as corporate funding of elections and other policy fights. these fights can also be radicalizing for people.
Someone says important to stand up against those things but they never worked - take iraq war protests as example. Not sure these tactics can ever
work.
may be contradicting herself now but she agrees cus she spent 9 yrs doing that work - frustrated cus of defensive posture and never having a long term
vision. Felt a lot of energy was always being spent on the defensive fights. Thinks maybe energy going into milliionaire tax can drain us and other
groups will do that work. Feels we sparked the revolution and not reformist strategies and maybe we should continue doing this.
Someone does not know what kind of line ben is proposing - maybe radicalism is a realization of the things we rely on and the empowerment from
seeing we dont need them - personally does not drink or smoke and this is a refusal she finds empowering and everyone may have such examples - are
there things we all agree on we can resist. capitalism is too amorphous how can u define it.
PS meeting coming up maybe we should break.
agrees lot of energy going into legislative process and is OK supporting but thinks energy there is draining and it can go to other places. She actually
wants to raise new topic: going back to off grid involves giving up tools are available now such as computers...nevermind? lol
recap on agreement - 1st issue: limits of lifestylism, ie personal changes we make can they evewr change anything. Studies tech at RPI. we are part of
existing systems that require certain inputs from us and these systems integrate us into communities. to withdraw from them means we also withdraw
from society and hurt ourselves. catch 22. radical purpose is to reorganize society so our systems are fulfilling and not destructive of ourselves or
community. capitalism or hatever system destroys us. withdrawal does not do much to hurt the system in a world of 7B ppl. acknowledges the
concern but wants to suggest against it. 2nd - strong demand for participatory democracy broadly - a world that functions thru participatory
democracy, a strong statement. We would have to go back a long time to have an example of sucha system. This is radical - more radical than
'anti-capitalism'. 3rd - need to raise consciousness and bring our principles to occupation community. Happy with the concern over resource
depletion - local self sufficiency and self reliance balanced with interdependence. 4th - feeling we are anticapitalist but doesnt know what it means.
Capitalism is an ideology and it exists for the capitalists but as a system in pure form it has never existed and never will. Idea of addressing it as
exploitation of labor is important, also abolishing private ownership of means of production. Also others suggest abolition of division of labor as idea
of abolising capitalism. we can articulate this idea of being against exploitation, division of labor, private ownership of MOP. if we articulate it
correctly we can gain a lot of traction. this movement can have BIG impacts, perhaps in may 68 scenario and we should not limit our vision.
Agreement on dont limit our vision of the possible.
FYI may 16th was uprising in france which was revolutionary fundamentally.
add to list what we are doing, what we are practicing. This is what makes occupy special we are not just talking but doing.
uncomfortable with unifying under that cus wants to say what we are for, pro-this. As for models, we have a lot to work on if we want to serve as one
maybe model is one we are learning how to do what we believe in but at least we are doing things.
camp is a fine example.
quick final thought. students and labor coming together. NYSE, out of SUNY and CUNY system. around privatization of public educational
institutions. in 2 months a lot of momentum and committment. labor is radicalizing, students radicalizing. looks forward to tuesday (departs).
danger about being too ideological. at first wanted 'revolution' and opposed to any compromise on strategy but then sees importance of small fights.
organizations which it is in their nature to coopt the movement. we should let them work on it and we can do other work, put our energies into the
fundamental areas. those organizations are not anti-capitalist. We should always bring the messsage back to the vision we want to work towards.
Planned parenthood as example - can not be revolutionary but is important in their issue. They will get their people out we should not spend double
enewrgy there. We can support but we have to do this.
statements of principle but now statements of strategy being spoken about. seems he is hearing that we should not abandon those campaigns and
groups, but leave them up to the professionals and support them, show up, and use them to radicalize the others who attend.
working on leg process or not - we have a setup with staging ground and media people will come to us if they want support. all that needs to happen is
for papers to say 'OA showed up to this'.
first week - actions against Cuomo and state. it is not about that. need to not let it get diverted. OWS focused on the problem not the decision maker,
which allows decision maker to come to us. Press can turn us into that but we should not be.
Ben will try to synthesize what hes heard and see what points of unity may be for further discussion. identify common grounds for fixing, fleshing out,
etc. This is NOT a final anything. statements of unity/principles/strategy give us a sounding board for how we address issues as they come along.
thinks we need to address issue of decriminalizing homelessness or prison poulations. these are not reformist - these are revolutionary and
liberationist. we should develop some common grounds in this vein to say what we are about. these statements resolve miscommunication.
make bullet points of what we want to address next mtg, not unifying statement.
Time for next meeting: tuesday at , will adress future meeting times there.
Radical Caucus Meeting 11.03.11
(NOTE: NAMES WERE INCLUDED IN SOME OF THE NOTETAKING. THAT VERSION IS AVAILABLE, AND WILL POST IF AGREED ON. SORRY TO THE NOTETAKER, BUT ONLY HAVE TWO SECONDS TO DECIDE TO GET THIS UP HERE!!)
this is about relationships- reintros why we are here
participatory economics
filmmaker media outreach homeless people
getting to know one another
highlighting functioning democratic egalitarian systtems
animal liberation outreach educatiojn concencus action and how radicalism resonates with that
the take naiomi klein occupy the park, take back business alternative economies, go slow and meet people we don't know
historic examples abolition movement weren't willing to comormise and practicing tat extemism, critical now for future our children, currently
incaple of funtioning for better world, using this to practice
legislation getting too much energy here, capitolism is the problem it cannot be reformed, go back to the beginning, middle class is tasting injustice,
but we need to address
energetic principals of designhs, energy neutral buildings and personal systems, very deep entological questions need to be asked and answered by us
and the whole world
people shouls dhare ideas for sustainable world, cross disciplother occupations locally and accross county on same page want to see them connect
more and movement catch on ines conversations basic unit of chaqnge
radical change, it's not going to be solved with electoral promises, away from devide and conquer. we need everyon'es participation, the whole 99%
using our current resources and tools, we can stay committed and do it, stay strong over the long haul through the resistance that will come from
power
want to get off couch and come talk, not sure but want to bounce ideas to both narrow and expand ikdeas
about time to be the change, why sit around, become stronger
georgia is facing hardship, we need to take care of ourselves, why is it radical to stand up and say we want a world worth living in ie- chickens and
goats not ok here in albany city, not radical, this is survival, discussion about getting back to skills that sustain us in the community, this is class
oppression
particular initiatives
more radiccal teach in's, put on calendar, paticipatory economics
participatory budgeting in camp and for outer community
there has been a common thread of vigilance and having lasting change
ways of being, how we do model change and demand it in the world, ith's totally connected
one fo the faults of mainstream moements is pushing an agenda
sentiment- we can get out of patterns, be creative in examining and doing structures in shared information don't want to see division, but healthy
critisisms
we should find our points of unity, as a caucus, what are our points, what do they mean, and how much unity exists on those points, and how do we
practice those principletemp check on the point of anticapitolism-
comments- the system in place doesn not work, prison industrial complex, corporations are people, voting rights
power should be horizontal
question of what is capitolism- it is technically based on the ability to profit, profit allows exploitation to go forward.
not against capitolism, but isms in generl. pro empowerment and developing people's capability to undertand theri postion in the worlkd, and truty
from dogma
pro diversity and the ability for everyone to function as they see fi
against large scale post industrial capitolism, don't know what else their is, not exposed, this is why i am here. it is a necessity to go beyond because
capitolism is failing as a system, against depersonalizing forces, eaurocracyies.
if scoety is economy plus politics, we have that.. gift economy and gs is democratic assembly, break stranglehold on myopic view of economy, we can
pass to succeeding generations
it is easier to say what we are for than against. points of unity can come around building a model that does work, as we learn, we can use or not use.
because this is happening around country
(personal idea------------ models that work taken from seana's point)
its possible for people to identify as cells, but the movement is ? politics is done through being for or against something, political science is done like
that.. agains mass society and global systems, but i don't think we can find unity. but we can say capitolism is estructive to our communities and
needs to end.
it's important to ask ourselves important questions. on what grounds do you support capitolism with the understanding of the inevitable relationship
betwweeen capitolosm and exploitation. likewise examine how we support or examine our democratic assemblys. when i was asking questions as a
youth li, we need to aks ourselves why this is still happening? on what grounds do we have this?
i wonder if the occupy movement will work, i don't know if we, our generations feel the sense of desperation, we have our i-phones and our
apartments, how much are we willing to give up to live this radicalism.
the most common ground pro capitolism is "there is no alternative" juztaposed against heirarchal communism. want to articulate the economic
alternatives, pb. how we want to identify as caucus, vs. how we go forward. laying out the alternatives. just using anticapitolism otherwise excludes
many through connotation and lack of understanding of how economies function.
opposed to limiting behaviour, concerned about limiting behavior against the caucus represented through online coments
anti capitolism is at it's liiots, and concerned with conserving resources..
overlap- we want a revolution but the first project is going to envolved education an d conciopus ri am waring thrings from capitolism, it is hard to , i
am trying to transistion and prepare, i am forced to live in it.
the system exploits and givess priveledge, want to see the same opportunity to all born
anti capitolism, getting off the grid, disconnecting from things that drain your soul. we are born in th esystem and need to reawaken "this isn't right"
so many distractions on tv that take you away from these conversations and real life. it's a system of confustion. live in harmony. bringing it back to
living and dwelling on hthis planet and coexisting
activist from 80's , know's friend gay killed himself, mother has alzeimers capitolism isn' thelping. having to live in garages, etc has been a reality. the
powers that be make you fel crazy because it is the staus quo. they are renting us as slaves, legalize hemp will help get rid of deficit, grow our own
food, make our own clothes. don't need ipod. (we should move tent to hear one another.)
system is dehumanizing becuae you have to rent yourself to someone, it is like being owned. it is funtamentally wrong. people are intelegent, need
means, ie supplies. as a community if we decided, we could do amazing things, ie build a carbon free city.
massa action will not work. agains a small or large group telling everyone how to live. ie if someone bays a thte moon, that's fine for them.. what we
do should work from each other.
identify the capitolism system we wound up, skeptical about whether any incarnation could work, but don't know. system is going to collapse. want
to come together and prepare for that that collapse and moving forward.
good that we took the time to go around like this, beneficial, uncomfortable with the idea of 'towing a line' - she left CANY cus she was unhappy with
the reformist approach of that org - felt this was a radical step and that she can be radical without enforcing homogeneity. Does not understand why
we have to replicate the way we do politics ie partisanship
nobody can say what is good for everyone - if u do that it is portraying authoritarian vision of what things should be. feels this really should mean how
we define what we stand with eachother around. Slavery as example - the line was drawn as either for slavery or against, no debate on that issue. We
should collectively draw this line somewhere, wherever we decide as a group. What are we absolutely not willing to accept. By doing politics this way
we can negotiate - band together as group with common interest. If we act as a group which can draw in everyone we end up helping to preserve the
system.
agreement that at some point we have to come to agreement on goal or what we stand for or against
suggestion "exploitation" is the idea we stand opposed to.
abolition example is compelling - likes how ben framed partisanship and wants to draw a line against capitalism. Still does not want to pset us against
any possibility of steps or process. Ex: millionaires tax, a reformist step but important to fight for altho it is not fundamentally going to alter
capitalism. Does not think thisis inconsistent with his opposition to capitalism. Should not ignore this issue or others even tho they are 'reformist'.
can carry over to other issues such as corporate funding of elections and other policy fights. these fights can also be radicalizing for people.
Someone says important to stand up against those things but they never worked - take iraq war protests as example. Not sure these tactics can ever
work.
may be contradicting herself now but she agrees cus she spent 9 yrs doing that work - frustrated cus of defensive posture and never having a long term
vision. Felt a lot of energy was always being spent on the defensive fights. Thinks maybe energy going into milliionaire tax can drain us and other
groups will do that work. Feels we sparked the revolution and not reformist strategies and maybe we should continue doing this.
Someone does not know what kind of line ben is proposing - maybe radicalism is a realization of the things we rely on and the empowerment from
seeing we dont need them - personally does not drink or smoke and this is a refusal she finds empowering and everyone may have such examples - are
there things we all agree on we can resist. capitalism is too amorphous how can u define it.
PS meeting coming up maybe we should break.
agrees lot of energy going into legislative process and is OK supporting but thinks energy there is draining and it can go to other places. She actually
wants to raise new topic: going back to off grid involves giving up tools are available now such as computers...nevermind? lol
recap on agreement - 1st issue: limits of lifestylism, ie personal changes we make can they evewr change anything. Studies tech at RPI. we are part of
existing systems that require certain inputs from us and these systems integrate us into communities. to withdraw from them means we also withdraw
from society and hurt ourselves. catch 22. radical purpose is to reorganize society so our systems are fulfilling and not destructive of ourselves or
community. capitalism or hatever system destroys us. withdrawal does not do much to hurt the system in a world of 7B ppl. acknowledges the
concern but wants to suggest against it. 2nd - strong demand for participatory democracy broadly - a world that functions thru participatory
democracy, a strong statement. We would have to go back a long time to have an example of sucha system. This is radical - more radical than
'anti-capitalism'. 3rd - need to raise consciousness and bring our principles to occupation community. Happy with the concern over resource
depletion - local self sufficiency and self reliance balanced with interdependence. 4th - feeling we are anticapitalist but doesnt know what it means.
Capitalism is an ideology and it exists for the capitalists but as a system in pure form it has never existed and never will. Idea of addressing it as
exploitation of labor is important, also abolishing private ownership of means of production. Also others suggest abolition of division of labor as idea
of abolising capitalism. we can articulate this idea of being against exploitation, division of labor, private ownership of MOP. if we articulate it
correctly we can gain a lot of traction. this movement can have BIG impacts, perhaps in may 68 scenario and we should not limit our vision.
Agreement on dont limit our vision of the possible.
FYI may 16th was uprising in france which was revolutionary fundamentally.
add to list what we are doing, what we are practicing. This is what makes occupy special we are not just talking but doing.
uncomfortable with unifying under that cus wants to say what we are for, pro-this. As for models, we have a lot to work on if we want to serve as one
maybe model is one we are learning how to do what we believe in but at least we are doing things.
camp is a fine example.
quick final thought. students and labor coming together. NYSE, out of SUNY and CUNY system. around privatization of public educational
institutions. in 2 months a lot of momentum and committment. labor is radicalizing, students radicalizing. looks forward to tuesday (departs).
danger about being too ideological. at first wanted 'revolution' and opposed to any compromise on strategy but then sees importance of small fights.
organizations which it is in their nature to coopt the movement. we should let them work on it and we can do other work, put our energies into the
fundamental areas. those organizations are not anti-capitalist. We should always bring the messsage back to the vision we want to work towards.
Planned parenthood as example - can not be revolutionary but is important in their issue. They will get their people out we should not spend double
enewrgy there. We can support but we have to do this.
statements of principle but now statements of strategy being spoken about. seems he is hearing that we should not abandon those campaigns and
groups, but leave them up to the professionals and support them, show up, and use them to radicalize the others who attend.
working on leg process or not - we have a setup with staging ground and media people will come to us if they want support. all that needs to happen is
for papers to say 'OA showed up to this'.
first week - actions against Cuomo and state. it is not about that. need to not let it get diverted. OWS focused on the problem not the decision maker,
which allows decision maker to come to us. Press can turn us into that but we should not be.
Ben will try to synthesize what hes heard and see what points of unity may be for further discussion. identify common grounds for fixing, fleshing out,
etc. This is NOT a final anything. statements of unity/principles/strategy give us a sounding board for how we address issues as they come along.
thinks we need to address issue of decriminalizing homelessness or prison poulations. these are not reformist - these are revolutionary and
liberationist. we should develop some common grounds in this vein to say what we are about. these statements resolve miscommunication.
make bullet points of what we want to address next mtg, not unifying statement.
Time for next meeting: tuesday at , will adress future meeting times there.